prerunner or crawler?

[bajamax]

i want to start a project truck soon. i like to rock crawl but i also like to go fast. i know if i put a prerunner suspension in then i wont have the 4 wheel drive to do the crawling. could i still do prerunner stuff with a solid front axle. any suggestions? :help:

[22REkid]

Yo BajaMax, this is a rockcrawler website, most of the people will tell you to build a rockcrawler truck. I build race trucks with IFS only and I can tell you that you can have a 4x4 prerunner pretty easily. Have you ever seen toe Total Chaos "Caddy" kit? I have a jig for one, I make them all the time. That kit is able to retain 4WD using T-100 axles (because T-100s are wide). It just comes down to personal preference. What ever you want to build is up to you. I like rock crawlers too, but I am not really that into it. I might build one someday but until then, I'll stick with the IFS. Prerunner Toyotas are a lot of fun to have for sure! Those kits are a lot of money though. Check out ESB Fabrication's website. They make good stuff. I wouldn't recommend buying a new kit though because of the price. The Total Chaos "Caddy" kit sells for like $1300 or something but since I make them myself, all I have to buy is steel and bushings. It's pretty cheap, like about $100. The kit works good with duel-rate coilovers (that is where you spend all the money). Don't get me wrong, I am not one of those kids who put fiberglass and a little suspension work on a Ford Ranger just for looks. It's fun to go 85 mph bombing through stuff that would put you on your lid if the suspension wasn't so good:)

[KToy]

hey i almost build a 94 v6 4x4 baja truck i was gonna buy the total chaos kit and i have a friend that is going to buy that kit.

how much you charge to make the kit for us ????


and i want to see pics of you guys jumping your rigs.

this is a toyota offroad site if i am not mistaken and baja is included i just know nothing about it.


so educate me, is it better to have a 4x4 truck or a 2x4 truck to start a baja style prerunner.

im buying a 2wd 2004 tacom in a few years and wanted to do the TC kit what do you suggest.


SORRY TO JACK YOUR THREAD BUT YA I WANT INO AND PICS...




and as to the original question. i have seen som pretty decent solid axle baja trucks but i wouldnt jump a solid axle truck cuz your gonna bend a houseing.

and if you want ifs 4x4 t100 shafts with TC kit that is your best bet for rockcrawling and baja cuz they have the most travel.

ifs is very capable offroad with the right driver and lockers.

[22REkid]

hey i almost build a 94 v6 4x4 baja truck i was gonna buy the total chaos kit and i have a friend that is going to buy that kit.

how much you charge to make the kit for us ????


and i want to see pics of you guys jumping your rigs.

this is a toyota offroad site if i am not mistaken and baja is included i just know nothing about it.


so educate me, is it better to have a 4x4 truck or a 2x4 truck to start a baja style prerunner.

im buying a 2wd 2004 tacom in a few years and wanted to do the TC kit what do you suggest.


SORRY TO JACK YOUR THREAD BUT YA I WANT INO AND PICS...




and as to the original question. i have seen som pretty decent solid axle baja trucks but i wouldnt jump a solid axle truck cuz your gonna bend a houseing.

and if you want ifs 4x4 t100 shafts with TC kit that is your best bet for rockcrawling and baja cuz they have the most travel.

ifs is very capable offroad with the right driver and lockers.

The who 4WD vs 2WD prerunner set up is purely a matter of opinion. I have some friends who put 4WD into their prerunners and they work just fine. It depends on what you want to do. I like to drive in the deserts here in California where you don't really need 4WD and it's less parts to fail when you are in the middle of nowhere. In some cases 2WD is your only option because like on the 18" travel ESB Fabrication kit, it is 5 1/2" wider on each side 11" overall trackwidth from the stock front end. The T-100 axles won't reach that far plus the CV boots are not made to be at such an angle when the suspension is at full droop. That kit is badass but I think it is over $2000. The Total Chaos kit is only 2 1/2" wider or something so the T-100 axles work just fine. Total chaos says that the "Caddy" kit has 13" but it is more like 12". I couldn't run 4WD with mine because I was using a 2.5" duel-rate coilover and they were too fat to put the axles in (the shock was in the way). I removed the front diff and I noticed a big difference in the way it handeled because the diff was heavy. I am not sure how much I would charge for the Total Chaos kit but probably around $500. My friend has the jigs now and I am waiting to get them back from him. I am going to build another kit as soon as I get them back to put on the "Silver Bullet Jr". I might think about making 2 at the same time if you guys want one. Total chaos makes a balljoint to uni-ball conversion that bolts into the stock balljoint location. They last about 100 times longer than the stock balljoints. Steering is also very important when using longtravel. The stock idler arm will wear out pretty fast is you drive hard. I always replace the stock steering and tie-rods with heimed units. That can get expensive too. I am not really a jumper because it will tear up the truck eventually. I wish I had a video camera that you could put the videos on the internet because I have some good footage! I am going to Mexico for the Baja 1000 November 17-20th. My friend is racing a motorcycle and I am going to use his truck as a chase vehicle. I will be sure to take some pics for you. His truck was built by me and him. Pics coming soon! When I get around to the "Silver Bullet Jr" project, I am going to do a build up thread (Suspension, cage work, Tacoma E-Locker conversion etc...) It should be cool! Look for it in the next couple of months.

[KToy]

ok ill look for it and the pics.


so if i were to do the 2wd tacoma. ( its a company truck now)

total chaos is an ok kit but there are better wtih mroe travel and i was thinking 35's for tires.

[22REkid]

http://www.chaosfab.com/2wdtaquito.html
Here is the chaos kit for the 2WD Tacomas. It says 11.5" of travel. ESB makes killer stuff too: http://www.esbfabrications.com/
There is not that much info about the 2wd Tacoma kit but I would think it would have more travel than the Total Chaos kits, but it is most likely way more expensive. Camburg makes high quality stuff too for a lot of money too. I just got back from my house and the only jump photo I have is in a 2WD Nissan. It is actually a pretty good rig, 4 link with 25" of travel on a T-100 rear axle. Center mounted A-Arms. You can't forget about the Escalade wheels too:) This truck is owned by my friend Andrew. It is a good example of a well built street legal prerunner.
[img=http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/6131/andrew17zc.th.jpg] (http://img35.imageshack.us/my.php?image=andrew17zc.jpg)

[img=http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1083/andrew23gd.th.jpg] (http://img35.imageshack.us/my.php?image=andrew23gd.jpg)

[KToy]

nice ill save those sites.

and u did the pics as a url instead of a photo link

press teh button on tip with the yellow on it and it looks like a mountain and then paste the photo properties target line into it.


http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/6131/andrew17zc.jpg


http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1083/andrew23gd.jpg

[yota711]

hey hey...yea i like the whole prerunner thing, so i guess im one of the few that is for it on this site. i like the IFS set up if it is built to last, and can withstand harsh punishment. ive been looking for a not so expensive way to set my truck up (92' ex. cab v6 4x4), but until now have failed. ive checked out the total chaos stuff before, and like you said before 22REkid that it is pretty expensive. how did you make your own jig for it? and if you didnt use 2.5" dual rates do you think you could still retail the 4wd if you got the T-100 axels with your kit you build? id like to know more about this so if you could fill us in!!! thanks 22REkid....

[22REkid]

hey hey...yea i like the whole prerunner thing, so i guess im one of the few that is for it on this site. i like the IFS set up if it is built to last, and can withstand harsh punishment. ive been looking for a not so expensive way to set my truck up (92' ex. cab v6 4x4), but until now have failed. ive checked out the total chaos stuff before, and like you said before 22REkid that it is pretty expensive. how did you make your own jig for it? and if you didnt use 2.5" dual rates do you think you could still retail the 4wd if you got the T-100 axels with your kit you build? id like to know more about this so if you could fill us in!!! thanks 22REkid....

How I made the jig was simple. My friend bought a used Total Chaos "Caddy" kit for $800 off of race-dezert.com and he let me borrow it for a couple of days so I could jig it. Pretty much all of my friends have Toyotas, tubing benders, and steel so instead of all of us buying them, we just decided to make them for all of us. I'm just waiting for one of my friends to buy the ESB Fabrications 18" travel kit so I can jig that one too. That Nissan was all done by Andrew but the geometry is off and the wheels have a camber problem when it cycles up (looks like an I-Beam ranger). The Chaos kit has no camber change when it cycles up, that is one of the things I like about it. I am planning on cutting and extending the jig so that I can pull more travel out of that kit. Yes you can still run tortion bars and retain 4WD. A couple of my friends have done that. it works well. 2.5 coilovers are a lot of money but they work good. I bought mine brand new from King Offroad Racing Shocks and I had them custom valved and sprung for a Totota with a total chaos caddy kit. It was $1300 for the 2 in the front. Rediculas!

[KToy]

well my prerunner will be jumping at the sand dunes... so what kit

2wd or 4wd ??

and single cab or extended cab ??

whats a good wheel base for this stuff and which kit/setup for jumping say 20 feet lenght and 8 feet high ?

500 bux for the jig kit ?? is that uniball/hem joints and is that include the metal ?

[22REkid]

well my prerunner will be jumping at the sand dunes... so what kit

2wd or 4wd ??

and single cab or extended cab ??

whats a good wheel base for this stuff and which kit/setup for jumping say 20 feet lenght and 8 feet high ?

500 bux for the jig kit ?? is that uniball/hem joints and is that include the metal ?
If you are going to jump it I recommend a 4WD standard cab. The reason is, even though 2 wheel drives are capable of a lot of travel, the steering upgrades for the stock 2WD are expensive. The stock stuff will break quick! It costs about $800 to upgrade The 2WD steering. The 4WD frame is way stronger and the standard cab has a pretty short frame the longer it is, the more likely you are to bend it jumping. If you were going to drive it in the desert, I would recommend the extended cab because the longer wheelbase is more stable at high speed. I have bent a couple of frames by hitting big rocks with the front tires (wideness). That lower balljoint to uni-ball conversion is about $400. I am not sure if I want to make a bunch of kits for people, I work 10 hours a day and it's a lot of work. This is my weekend hobby. We'll have to talk more about it later when I start building mine. The heimed tie-rods are about another $400 unless you wan't to build them yourself. Heims are expensive. It gets expensive when you put good components on it. The stock tie-rods will work just fine if you extend them, but will wear out quicker with the increased angles of long travel. The stock idler arm comes into play too, the upgraded one is $300. All this plus the high dollar shocks leads up to about $3700 dollars into the front end. The biggest expense is the kit ($1300 from Chaos) and the shocks. There is not much I can do about the idler arm, heimed steering, and lower uni-ball conversion. Total Chaos sells all that stuff ( http://www.chaosfab.com/toyaccess_4wd.html ). I just make the arms.

[KToy]

cool. anyway to make my own arms that attach in the middle of the frame that have a very long travel for a 2wd out of 2 OD DOM tube with my tube bender ?

[yota711]

so the kits like the TC one give you lift in the front, so what do you do with the rear? im thinkin if i had a jig like yours of something, i could build the arms like you did...so all you have is those way expensive shocks in the front? i was thinkin some coilovers or something cheaper, cuz im prolly not gunna jump it, at least not that high...just run it hard...but not through the desert...i live in iowa...haha...

[22REkid]

Yeah the Chaos kit giges you 0-4" of lift in the front by cranking the torsion bars. If you use a coilover, there is no need for torsion bars anymore and you can adjust the height a lot easier. Stock V6 torsion bars are pretty strong. The only thing I recommend to the 4cyl. guys who still want to use torsion bars, is to go to the junkyard and buy V6 torsion bar sockets. They are bigger and stronger. The actual torsion bar is the same size the only difference from the 4cyl. bars and V6 bars is the sockets. Yota711, you already have a V6 so you are all good with the torsion issue. I don't like to jump it too much, my coilovers are set up for high speed rough terrain. I think that shocks are the most inportant part of long travel. You see a lot of bypass shocks in offroad racing. This is where it gets way expensive. Bilstein 7100's work really good with the torsion bars. You only need an 8" or 10" shock. 7100's are not that expensive. It is important to buy shocks that can withstand a lot of heat (a Rancho will melt in less than 10 minutes of hard driving). I would buy something with a remote resevior. You have a couple of options for the rear. 4 link or 3 link which you can build yourself for pretty cheap. Or you can buy one that has already been made for usually about $2000 and up ( http://www.esbfabrications.com/3link.htm ) If you want to still use leaf springs you can either buy 62" Deavers or 62" Nationals. I like Nationals better but they don't have any info about them on any websites, I called them a couple of months ago and the quoted me a price of $800 to get some custom 62"s. I ended up buying another pair od 62" Deavers because I found them only used once for $400 on race-dezert.com. Here is what they look like: http://www.kartek.com/products/truck/rearsusp/rearsusp.htm . Then You need to find a high quality shock for the rear. I had Bilstein 9100 triple bypasses on the Silver Bullet but that was way expensive ($1000 each). Bilstein 7100's work well in the rear too but unfortunantly the longest 7100 that they make is only a 14" stroke. To fully maximize a 62" spring set up, you need a shock that has an 18" stroke. If you use the 7100's, you have to use a limiting strap to keep the shocks from ripping apart. Those springs will drop out a lot and 14" just isn't enough.

[KToy]

thos 62 inch springs look like they would kick ass for rockcrawling.

anyone ever used them for rockcrawling ??

[yota711]

hey...i looked into the shocks and rear springs you linked me too...they are pretty insanse and look like they could do some damage, but i think they might be to insane for what i want to do. the hardest prerunning that me and my buddies do is like level B service roads, and back country stuff...yea redneck i know, but hey thats us, and like i said i live in iowa. there aint to many deserts around here...so i was thinking that i could get by with some not so insane equipment. i know the socks need to be good, but for the fear of jumping and breaking stuff, or topping out my truck on some bumpy as all get out terrain, im thinkin that wont happen. i jsut want to to be capable for now, then im thinkin ill get another truck do trick out to the max, but this is my daily driver and weekend worrior for now. so now that ive filled you in what do you suggest i do? i dont have loads of cash, but i still have some money to spend...thanks for helpin me out...

[22REkid]

This sounds stupid but I did it before I bought all the insane stuff. If you buy leaf springs for a Ford Ranger or Explorer, they are about 53" long. If you convert it to spring under with Ranger leafs and the 14" Bilstein 7100s mounted through the bed, it is good for 16" of travel. I have a set of Ranger leafs that I added more leafs (junkyard race pack), and a set of 14" Bilstein 7100s that I only used a couple of times just laying around. I am not sure if I will ever use them. I'll let em go for cheeeeeap. When I get around to making my next Chaos kit, I am going to jig that one too so that I will have a jig at all times because for the last year, my friends keep borrowing them and then I don't see them for a few months. I might make a couple of jigs and let people in the Toyota community borrow them. It's really easy to make the jig. I'll keep you posted.

[KToy]

ya keep us posted i buy a jig from ya.

[yota711]

yea id buy one too...im not planing to start my little project till spring anyway...so that'll work pretty good

[badyota]

I went the other way getting ready to hit the trail http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/outbackoffroadgear/DSC00291.jpg

[KToy]

nice rig probably the nicesest 4runner i have ever seen.

[jltoy]

I miss my old 86 2wd desert truck I ran in New Mexico (22r, downy suspension, glass skins). Here in Montana there is not much of that type of terain so I run the 85 I have now. If I was still down south I try to keep my rig general pourpose or have a couple of rigs. Crawling and trails are fun but sometimes I just want to go fast and get some air.

[badyota]

What part of Montana are you at i have freind that moved back to montana

[zamdrang]

This is all good stuff...but I think the original poster asked about a solid axle rig as a prerunner. I noticed because I have the same questions.....I do a little of both...so IFS wont work.

Anyway, ive done lots of homework on this subject and still trying to figure out what I want to do. I know ill never get it to work like an IFS truck...but for some mild desert abuse it will work. In the early days of Baja solid axle/leafs were very common.

The rock crawling community/companies have embraced the solid front axle whereas the desert scene there are much better options. However, even in desert racing their are still many who use a leaf sprung rear end. The difference there being the extreme length, and some sort of high tech shackle.

The front is a different story, and tough to find out much on. Ive talked to both Alcan and Deaver about this and both told me they could build a front spring for the purpose.

There are things common like wheel travel, and good shocks. Ive read in fact that a high speed control of a leaf spring solid axle generally requires more shock then people expect. I just read something about this on racedezert.com.

One major difference I see right away and where the compromise needs to be made is in ride height. The search for extreme rockcrawling flex/travel tends to make the truck taller....not good at high speed across the desert...the lower the CG the better. One reason IFS works so well....you can get a lot of travel with less rid height.

Ive settled on a max of a 5" spring with 33s, and then I think im more on the side of rock crawling then pre running. I had a 85 runner with the 3" Downeys and 31s..and it would float across some pretty rough terrain at high speed. But it lacked travel for getting into anything real twisty. Maybe a 4" spring is the best bet......????

Sorry for the long post.....just stoked to see someone else with the same question...finally! :)

[Kyron]

http://home.earthlink.net/~bluecoyoteracing/id1.html

class 7s is pretty much solid front axle trucks :grin:

[zamdrang]

Cool! Now thats what im talking about....thanks for postingthe link. :grin:

From what ive seen 7s is mostly IFS and twin beam rangers, but regardless thats a cool link and great example of what can be done.

Looks like their using a lot of shock on the front....supports what ive been reading.